Director Danya Taymor On ‘Heroes Of The Fourth Turning,’ A Play About God, Politics And The Current Moment

Heroes of the Fourth Turning is the electric and radical new play by Will Arbery, directed by Danya Taymor, now enjoying an extended run at Playwrights Horizons. The critically-acclaimed show, based on Arbery’s life when his parents moved to Wyoming to work at Wyoming Catholic College, explores American conservatism, a subject not often touched upon in New York theatre.

One week after the Charlottesville riots, and two days before the 2017 solar eclipse, four young conservatives are re-uniting at an after-party in the backyard of one of their homes. Teresa, Kevin, Justin and Emily, (brilliantly portrayed by Zoë Winters, John Zdrojeski, Jeb Kreager and Julia McDermott) have returned home to celebrate the promotion of their mentor, Gina (a scene-stealing Michele Pawk), who has been promoted to president of the small Catholic College they all attended. The mood is that of a high school reunion, running into past loves, gossiping and catching up on old times.

What is meant to be a celebration quickly escalates into heated discussions about generational politics and the current state of America. Within this group of right-leaning Catholics, opinions across a broad spectrum are voiced, and sometimes shouted, on topics such as abortion and the current state of the Republican party. The conversations are fast and furious, set against a sprawling, haunted Wyoming landscape.

Taymor has created a world both tense and mystical, where the characters are equal parts charming and vile. The director is known for taking on some of the most exciting new work today and masterfully bringing it to the stage. Most recently, she directed Jeremy O. Harris’ play, “Daddy” which went up at both The New Group and the Vineyard, and starred actor Alan Cumming. It was recently announced that “Daddy” would make its London debut at the Almeida Theatre this March. Other recent directing credits include Antoinette Nwandu’s Pass Over and Martyna Majok’s Queens, both at Lincoln Center. Pass Over was also performed in Chicago at Steppenwolf, where it was filmed by Spike Lee for Amazon.

I spoke to Taymor about what she felt was imperative to her to thrive as a young director. We also discussed her research and approach to directing Heroes of the Fourth Turning, and why her network of other female directors is invaluable.

Risa Sarachan: What spoke to you after first reading Heroes of the Fourth Turning?

Danya Taymor: I think my entry point into a play is always the strength of the language. I was just completely floored and overcome by the power of Will’s voice, by the particular way he uses language, by the onslaught of language. I read it in one sitting without stopping, which, you know, is always a really good sign when you're reading a play, because it kind of felt like I was watching it. And there was this contradiction in these characters, where they were completely foreign to the kind of people I grew up with, but, at the same time, I felt like I deeply knew them, and that sort of agitation inside me really pulled me in. I was really moved by this world that felt totally foreign but totally familiar at the same time.

Sarachan: I don’t think I’ve ever seen a play where I’ve related so much to characters who were so foreign to me. What have the overall audience reactions been like?

Taymor: Oh my gosh, there've been so many, which is such a testament to what Will has done. I do feel like the play is speaking to every single person that comes in there. People are deeply affected, they're disturbed, they're moved. But what’s been really amazing, and I think this was part of Will’s intention, was for it to be a play that, whether you like it or not, it's not because of your age, or where you grew up, or your religious beliefs, or your race. It's a play that-people don’t like it, but all different kinds of people don't like it, and people who love it really are all over the spectrum. What's unique about it to me is it changes who responds to it and is less defined in terms of identity and more like on terms of the soul or the heart or the mind, you know? And that feels special and unique, and I don't know that I've been a part of something that quite does that before.

Sarachan: Have any Republican publications reviewed the show?

Taymor: Yes, a ton. Rod Dreher, who wrote the book the Benedict Option and has a very popular website, wrote this post, which is really interesting, with intense admiration of the play. C.C. Pecknold, who is a Catholic writer, wrote one of our early responses. There are also people writing about it from the Catholic perspective who are really uncomfortable with the play-who both seem to love it and hate it, but we've had priests come to the show, which for me is amazing. To have people outside of that 60 plus white theater-going liberal audience hear about the play and be like, “I’ve got to come,” is amazing.

So, we definitely have had people all across the right, whether it be conservatives or Catholics, respond to the show, and whether it's positive or negative, it's always a very strong response, which I think is a testament to the text and the power of those performances.

Sarachan: You traveled to Wyoming in preparation for this production. What did you get out of that trip that informed the way you directed the show?

Taymor: It’s weird, you know, I grew up in the Bay Area in California, and both my parents are Jewish, but I've like always had this weird pull to Wyoming, and it started a long time ago.

The way I met Will was that he saw a play I directed by a fantastic writer named Brian Watkins, called Wyoming. So, Heroes is not the first time I've been in that world. I traveled out there for the first time maybe two years ago, and then I went back the December before our rehearsals started, to a town called DuBois, where a friend of mine named Creed Garnick has this ranch called 3 Spear Ranch. Everybody should go there because it's an artist retreat but also a beautiful place that's like an hour from Lander where the play takes place. It’s where the school that Transfiguration College is based on is located.

So, I was really close, and the biggest inspiration for me in terms of designing the set and working with Laura Jellinek and Isabella Byrd was this one night I was there, and it was the winter solstice so already there was something natural and powerful in the air, and we decided to go out on a hike at midnight. It was the night of the equinox, and so there was this incredibly full moon. We got to the top of this hill, and we were just going to look out over the landscape, and there were 20 horses all gathered on the top of the hill, just like hanging out. It was so-that feeling for me is the feeling of the play. There was this white horse also, and I kind of feel like I had a connection with the white horse.

Sarachan: Woah, that story gives me goosebumps.

Taymor: I just remember that feeling, which was so mysterious, and I don't know even how to describe it other than how you reacted when I just told you, and for me, that's the feeling of Heroes. I knew that we had to create that feeling of night and expanse and mystery and unknown-where you could be walking and not see in front of you, and then you walk five more feet and, oh my gosh, there are 20 horses right in front of you, that have been there, but you didn't see them. So, there is something about that darkness, that particular darkness, those sounds of nature, the wide expanse and the feeling.

The play takes place during a very charged time-a week after Charlottesville and right before the total eclipse. So, that kind of buzz-that is a communal feeling I experienced that night, and that's what I took back with me when we began to design and stage the show.

Sarachan: What other specific challenges did the show require of you as a director?

Taymor: It was one of the most enjoyable and joyful processes I've ever had. the challenges were all really exciting like, “how do I help this company of actors get this text underneath so that they can feel free, and alive, and that they can vibrate onstage?”

I think one of the most incredible things about the play is that for a lot of people watching, the intellect of these characters is faster and sharper than that of the audience member and that's alarming and exciting, like, “ I’ve got to really keep up with these folks.” And so a lot of our work was with getting that language into the body with the actors. We did a lot of physical work, a lot of ensemble building and I feel like that was one of the exciting challenges, to help get the text of the play underneath us, so that we could be doing it as opposed to the play doing us. The play just required boldness at every step, like the design even. We had a hunch that it could work, we had a hunch that it had to be like this, but none of us had ever done something like this.

I kind of took those leaps of faith at every step to do justice to the play because I think Will, in digging into his soul and into his family and into himself, did that. So, he kind of led with that boldness and that risk-taking and that leap. And so for me, it was just about really trusting that we had to do that at every step of the way or else the play wouldn't fly.

Sarachan: What was important to you to get right about this show?

Taymor: I think firstly, was to view them just as people. The character Teresa in the play has this amazing line, she says, “It can’t be about gooey feeling, it’s thought-thought. Comprehending each other’s thinking is the only possible political corrective, and we’ve almost completely lost the ability to do it.”

I thought about that a ton. If I can just understand the way these thoughts are moving, and the actors can understand how these thoughts are progressing, then we don’t have to put any judgement on it. We can just play those thoughts for what they are. Another important thing was that for these characters, these beliefs aren't shocking until we get to the final climax of the play. They’re not surprised by each other’s thoughts because there's a shorthand, so there is a huge expansive belief within them. And so in finding those truths about that group of people, like what shocks them inside of it? What do they feel is shorthand and normal? That helped us not put judgment on the play that if we as collaborators have different views.

Another thing we really just focused on were the relationships. Who are these people to each other? What does it feel when you haven't seen people or a place for seven years, and you get thrown back together? How do you regress, or how do you bring your new self into it? So, just kind of knowing that the political beliefs were shared and that they have a shared language of debating and arguing. I think taking all those things as our baseline helped us-not be like, oh gosh, this is so whatever the response could be from somebody who has left-leaning views-and just focus on trying to deliver the truth of it.

Will and I talked a lot about this play as something we are trying to expose the audience to. How they feel about the exposure, if it burns them, if it makes them feel warm, if it makes them afraid-whatever they do with that feeling-is up to them. It’s just our job to expose the most potent version of the thing that we can, and to do that; you can't judge the characters in any way.

Sarachan: What excites you the most about the theatre world today?

Taymor: I’m really excited and just feel thrilled to be in this generation of American Theatre. I feel like the people who are writing right now like Will Arbery, Antoinette Nwandu, Jeremy O. Harris, Korde Arrington Tuttle-the purity of the voice of each of these distinct writers is so intense and incredible. I feel like for a director to get to inhabit those worlds, that have their particular imagination and provocation, that to me is exciting. The content also dictates the form and vice versa. I also think about directors like Whitney White and Taibi Magar, who are attacking the text with physicality and attention to the body that links it with text that I’m very excited about.

I also feel like there is an attack on the current moment and history that is explosive and so honest. I do feel like all those writers, and you know there are so many more great people who are writing right now, they're risking so much skin, and they're putting themselves on the line in order to tell these stories. And that's why the work is so powerful to me. I just feel really invigorated by the writing. I never thought that I was going to direct new plays. I thought that's going to be doing like Shakespeare and Chekhov, and I do feel like that preparation has set me up to work well with these writers who are those people of our time.

Sarachan: What’s something you’d like to see change within the theatre world?

Taymor: I think about directors a lot because our most valuable asset is our time and our ability to be available and free. And also, the cost of living in New York. I feel like one big elephant in the room is that people don’t want to talk about how much support they have, whether it’s through their parents or an institution. I think that if you were to look at the directors who are really working, and of course there are exceptions, so many people have it where if you need something there is a person you can call and say, “I can’t make rent, can you help me?” That is so important, and I definitely had that, and I definitely think that that ability to call on somebody allowed me the security to pursue these huge dreams.

Something that I'm really trying to advocate for on an institutional level, is support for people who want to be directors but don't have that safety net because if you don't have that, then you have to have a full-time job and that can work for the first three or five years, you know. I had a full-time job for the first two years I lived here and would do theatre at night, but if you want to make that jump to directing full-time and you don't have somebody you can pick up the phone and say “I'm really struggling financially and I need help,” then you're just not going to advance at the same rate. I don't think people want to talk about it, but it has to get out there, because the minute institutions can give young directors who have not yet proven themselves but have all this potential, you know, like, $40,000 a year just to make so that they can quit their jobs-that will actually bring diversity into the field. I do feel like that financial leap you have to make those few years when you don't know where you're going to go is terrifying. It’s possible for the most part to make a living, you know, directing in schools and having side gigs and part-time jobs-but that becomes way more tenuous if you don't have the knowledge that you'll be able to end up on your own two feet. That is what the safety net provides. People do make it through who don't have that safety net, and it is incredible. But, I do feel that there would be way more voices in the mix if institutions would support folks before they've proven themselves. Because once you prove yourself, then you don't need the help as much anymore. You have to invest in somebody knowing that they could fail. Invest in them so that they can fail without feeling like they have to leave New York and do something else. So, I'm really trying to advocate for that because otherwise, I think you'll only still see one kind or a few kinds of people making it through.

Sarachan: Do you know of any organizations working toward those goals?

Taymor: The Roundabout Theatre has this amazing fellowship for a director where they get a salary, and they also give the director the chance to assist with many of their shows. You're working with a plethora of directors, and I feel like that is an incredible model. I would love more institutions in New York, especially like those primo top-tier institutions, to create these opportunities for directors.

You know, $40,000 is a lot of money, but it's also not in the grand scheme of a budget. I know that it would be highly competitive, and that of course, you could only give to a few people, but even like six or seven more people a year-just getting a full year where all they're doing is learning, trying to make work, trying to make connections, you know? That could change the game. Because that's also like, what if you can't go to graduate school, but you do want to have that sort of cocoon of creation in New York City?

I think Clubbed Thumb has one of the best fellowships for young directors, but that one is not a financial solve, that's more like an opportunity to make work where people actually see it, which is another struggle with young directors. I'm just hoping that those big institutions will feel like this is an important investment, because I think it will pay off so many times over what they invest in it.

Sarachan: What are you working on next?

Taymor: I’m directing “Daddy” by Jeremy O. Harris. We did it last year in New York, and I’m so excited to get to do it again this upcoming season. Before that, I'm going to the Goodman Theatre to do this amazing play by Korde Arrington Tuttle called Graveyard Shift, that's inspired by the life of Sandra Bland. He (Tuttle) imagined a woman, and her name in the play isn’t Sandra, but he imagined her life, her partner, her worries, what keeps her up at night, and also the life of the police officer who pulled her over in that traffic stop. So, there are two parallel narratives that crash into the climax of the play, which is the literal transcript from that dashcam video. It's so powerful. It's an incredible piece of writing.

There is nothing better than to be full of somebody’s incredible words. That’s how I felt in those early days working on Shakespeare or Chekhov, was this invigoration that the language gives you. Even if you’re tired, the language makes you full of adrenaline and full of inspiration.

Sarachan: What's the best advice that you would give to young directors?

Taymor: I think finding a way to engage with positive relentlessness is really good. The amount of times I've been told no before no turns into yes, is pretty much every time I've ever asked for anything. It's not about antagonizing, but just about this incredible conviction of what you want to have happen. I think sometimes just continuing to ask for what you want can yield change in the answer actually, because people are moved by passion and conviction. I also think surrounding yourself with the kind of artists that you believe in, and the kind of work you're trying to make is really helpful. I think sometimes the industry can want us to turn our peers into our competition, and I think reaching out to those folks will pay many dividends back.

I’ve become friends with Whitney White, Lila Neugebauer, Lileana Blain-Cruz, Taibi Magar, Adrienne Campbell-Holt, Margot Bordelon, Annie Tippe, Miranda Haymon, Rachel Chavkin-all these incredible directors who could be seen as my competition-to be able to text them and say “Ah, I’m in this situation I’ve never been in, what should I do?” That resource of the people who are in the trenches in the same way you are, even though they are in parallel trenches that is a gift.

I also feel like mentorship is so valuable. The directors who are a couple of steps ahead of you-the generosity there has been amazing to me. I think Annie Kauffman has come to see every play I’ve done that I’ve invited her to since I was 25 years old. Evan Cabnet is someone who really believed in me and put his money where his mouth was in giving me my off-broadway debut. Sam Gold is another person that has given incredible advice. Those are people that I’ve admired for years before I could find a way to get in touch with them. Again, that relentlessness in the pursuit of what you think could help you will grant you those things, especially if those institutions give us a little bit more money. But I do feel like that fostering of a community of like-minded and unlike-minded artists who you respect, is the thing that will feed you when you are in scarcer times.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

Tickets for Heroes of the Fourth Turning at Playwrights Horizons can be found here.