COLUMBUS, Ohio -- The 2024 NFL Draft is now in the review mirror as we focus on a 2025 class sure to be filled with Ohio State football players following a year where only four were drafted.
The Buckeyes had only one first-round pick this spring, but could they be on the verge of not only setting a program record, but the national record in 2025? On this episode of Buckeye Talk, Stephen Means, Nathan Baird and Andrew Gillis explore the 2025 NFL Draft and project the number of first-round picks OSU could have.
They also compare the program’s NFL Draft development to when Jim Tressel and Urban Meyer were in charge to see whether Ryan Day is already ahead of the curve. Plus, predicting when Ohio State will surpass 100 first-round draft picks.
Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Stephen Means (00:11.216)
Welcome back to Buckeye Talk. I’m Stephen Means, that’s Nathan Baird, and that’s Andrew Gillis. And wrapping up draft coverage, it’s not really coverage, it’s the last draft thing we’re gonna do for a while here. Obviously Ohio State had four players taken in the 2024 NFL Draft, Marvin Harrison, Michael Holt Jr., Tommy Eichenberg, and Cade Stover of the nine. Though I think Nathan, as we’re recording this pod on Monday morning, all but maybe two guys of the other group who didn’t get.
Drafted have at least signed an undrafted free agent. We’re kind of waiting on Maya and Williams, I think. Is there anybody else we’re still waiting on at this point?
Nathan Baird (00:43.158)
I think Maya might be the only one that we haven’t heard anything on. And because of his injury situation, um, him being open at the combine, but the fact he might not be ready for, um, pre training camp complicates his situation. Obviously.
Stephen Means (00:58.192)
Okay, so yeah, get the text 614-350-3315. If that happens, when that happens, that’s the first place we’ll go with it. Just like the first place we’ll go with any transfer portal information, we’ll be there as well. Ohio State did officially lose a third player to the transfer portal in Jahad Carter. So yeah, they’re up to three so far. So it’s still been pretty quiet, Jahad Carter, a player who-
Came here from Syracuse last year, but injuries and maybe just where the room was at that point didn’t necessarily tend to him getting on the field here. And now when you’ve got some guys back, it’s kind of you saw some writing on the wall here. But
One last draft thing we wanna do, we wanna look forward, we wanna continue to look forward. Even this entire weekend, as we were doing draft coverage, so much of it was about, okay, this just happened, but guess what’s coming down the line here? Even with Marvin Harrison Jr. getting drafted, it was like, this is a big deal. But it also is like, not even close to being over, depending on how some of these other things work out, everything else. We talked about how...
2025 could be a big year in general, Andrew, for Ohio State in the draft coverage today. We want to narrow it down here with something that we typically done every single year. And it’s almost in the vein of market down Monday, but not quite that. But just projecting first round draft picks for Ohio State. So let me give you some numbers, Andrew. And then I’ll just get your reaction here. For starters, the record.
from most first round draft picks in a single draft by one school is six. Miami had that in 2004 and then Alabama tied it in 2021. Ohio State’s record is five and they’ve had that twice. Jim Trestle did it in 2005, I believe. And then Urban Meyer did it in 2016. Just off, do you think Ohio State can flirt with either one of those? When you were trying to map out.
Stephen Means (02:40.732)
projecting who you guys were getting there. Was it pretty easy for you to come around on that idea or did you maybe get to a couple and then you started to have a hard time with it? Don’t give away your number though.
Andrew (02:51.73)
Yeah, I think they can. You know, you can absolutely get close to that number. I think it’s going to take again, not to give away the number, you’re going to need some elevation in 2024 by some guys, right? You know, you’re going to need something to go in a manner that is, you know, positive for those player or players. You know, there, there’s a group of guys that I think we all are going to have.
I mean, for the most part, this list is going to be fairly similar. But as you get towards the back half, you know, I think it’s going to depend on what you think of a player’s 2024 outlook, whether or not you think a player can maybe enter the draft. You know, there’s a few guys who could theoretically come back for 2025. Maybe we have another situation for, you know, next season where, hey, look, Ohio State does lose a lot of players, but maybe the draft isn’t as crazy as we think it could be.
Because they just get what happened this off season, next off season, right? You know, they just have a couple of guys that can come back, come back. So I think this all depends on kind of your view of how you think these guys are approaching the NFL draft and what you think Ohio State’s 2024 outlook is gonna be with those guys on the team. So they can definitely get there though. There is definitely a path for this to happen.
Stephen Means (04:13.068)
One correction, it’s 2006, not 2005. I can’t read my own handwriting sometimes. So 2006 for Jim Trestle, 2016 for Urban Meyer. So 10 years apart for those guys. Some other numbers, Nathan, to throw out here, just because we’re at Ohio State now at 91 first round draft picks after Marvin Harrison, Jr. went fourth to the Cardinals last Thursday. Jim Trestle had 14 first round draft picks during his time as Ohio State’s head coach. Urban Meyer also 14 as Ohio State’s head coach. Ryan Day.
already up to 10 and his highest three, he had three in 2020 and he had three again in 2023. Just not alone, Ryan Day potentially, if this, we’re talking about breaking records or at least tying what the highs are in the past 25 years, Ryan Day potentially in, not significantly less time, but a decent amount of less time, already surpassing Jim Trestle and Urban Meyer when it comes to first round draft picks.
That idea of him being able to do that in 2025 gets what reaction out of you in terms of what, how that defines the Ryan Day era of Ohio State football so far in terms of NFL draft development.
Nathan Baird (05:24.394)
Well, things change so much in terms of how these rosters were built as you went from Trestle to Meyer, right? So Meyer, relatively short amount, like it’s what, seven years, right? So, Meyer got the ball rolling a little bit. I think some of this payoff, especially having those three first round guys in after day’s first year, all defensive guys, so how much do you want to give him, like, credit for those guys? I mean...
Some, you know, kept things going. And those guys and some of those guys, Jeff Wakuda and Damon Arnett, had their best seasons as they’re in their final season. So, and Chaesung too, obviously. I mean, nobody’s had a season like that, but you already knew that was kind of coming. So, but you know what I’m saying? Like those three, technically they go under Ryan Day’s counter, but they really belong to Urban Meyer just as much. The Urban Meyer machine that was going on there. They found those guys, they developed those guys. And...
I think this season, I never like to get too wrapped up in whether you’re producing an abundance of first round guys. I think producing legitimate NFL guys is a thing. I think at some point, if you’re one of these programs that’s competing at the very top, yes you probably do have to recruit, you do have to produce a decent regular number of first round guys. But to say that you have to get
abundance of them all the time is a little bit unrealistic. You can find great players in the second and third rounds. Sometimes it’s just a matter of which teams are drafting, where in a given year that’s where a guy goes, there’s a lot of guys who went in the second round this year that we would have guessed were definitely first round guys. Right. So don’t like to get wrapped up in that too much, but having said that, I think there is something to be said for. We’ve had several years here, especially on the defensive side of the ball, where Ohio state just has gotten away from its identity has not.
been producing first round guys and they got to get some of that back. This needs to maybe be a year where they send a message to the rest of college football that when you come here and you put in your three or four years and in the cases of the guys we’re going to be talking about, that you can come out of this as being regarded as the best players in the country. I think that has currency. It’s been a while at some important positions. It’s been a while on the offensive line too, until Paris Johnson.
Nathan Baird (07:44.266)
did it a couple years ago, and maybe that’ll pay off for them in the long run. I don’t know. We haven’t necessarily seen great indication of that yet, but we’ll see as these classes come together. But I think there is a point where having a big draft avalanche like we think there might be for Ohio State a year from now, it isn’t just chest thumping. I think it is an important thing to get the notoriety out there for your program because
when the teams that have been, I think most routinely seen to do this, how did Georgia come around and really build its mini dynasty? It started before that. It started when they were seen as a team that was at the top of the recruiting rankings every year and a team that was getting guys through to the NFL in big bunches. And Ohio State needs to stay in that conversation.
Stephen Means (08:36.716)
I think what next year’s draft could potentially do, depending on what the number is, is give Ryan Day some variety as well. Obviously, I mentioned Ryan Day has 10 of them. Two of them are cornerbacks, and as you mentioned, Nathan, excuse me, 11 of them, I’m wrong, 11 of them. I counted, I didn’t count J. Chung, sorry. So 11, two cornerbacks and a defensive lineman, all from, I mean, you can say the Urban Meyer era, because they played two of the three years they were on campus for Jeff Okuda and J. Chung for Urban Meyer, and Damon Arnett was here for five years
those for urban buyer but still defensive lineman two cornerbacks two quarterbacks a wide receiver and offensive lineman i still might have that math wrong hold on
Yeah, 12, excuse me. This is what happens when you can’t read your own head we’re handwriting guys, but this is live. So we’re doing this. Urban Meyer, two linebackers of a cornerback, two defensive linemen, a running back, an offensive lineman, safety center. So I differentiated like guard and tackle from center. And then one quarterback, which is Dewayne Haskins, which if we’re gonna, I think that’s fair to say, if you wanna give Chase and Jeff, especially Chase, cause Chase was awesome. I was in year two more about Urban Meyer.
Dwayne Haskins is more about Ryan Day. So what kind of equals out there? Jim Tressel, three defensive linemen, two cornerbacks, four wide receivers, two linebackers, a safety, a center, and a running back. So just the variety that Urban Meyer and Jim Tressel had. Right now, Ryan Day doesn’t necessarily have that. It’s a bunch of offensive guys and some leftover guys on defense. And it feels like this is an opportunity to do that. Okay.
That’s the background information. We’re gonna do this a little differently. We’re not necessarily gonna do it in the draft format because I just think we’ve done that a lot lately. And so we’re just gonna mix some things up here. Nathan knows this because he was on the pod this week and the Texas know this as well. 614-350-3315. I presented a list of just guys who are realistic NFL draft picks in general.
Stephen Means (10:29.38)
in 2025 and I got to 19 guys plus the two quarterbacks and that’ll be 20. That’s one guy we’re going to count as because they both can’t start between Devin Brown and Will Howard because that’s either a quarterback who 100% is going to be in the NFL draft or quarterback who is draft eligible. So that’s, I listed them out. Fifth year guys are higher. Fourth year guys are third year, first time that draft eligible guys. So I’ll read that list again, just cause Andrew wasn’t on that pod.
Will Howard at quarterback, G Scott, Seth MacLoughlin, Josh Friar, Ty Hamilton, Cody Simon, Latham Ransom. Those are the guys who have been in college football for at least five years. The fourth year guys, Trevion Henderson, Ameca Bucca, Joshua Simmons, Donovan Jackson, Jack Sawyer, JT Twiemoloao, Tyleek Williams, Jordan Hancock, and Denzel Burke. And then some third year guys, some of these, little bit more established, some of these other guys just flyers, Devon Brown, Quinshawn Judkins,
Sonny Styles, CJ Hicks, and Davidson Ibn Nosen. So if guys want to add to that list, cool, but that’s the list I was working off of when I was thinking about potential first round draft picks. And I’m not saying all 21 or 20, since we’re combining them both with the quarterbacks are gonna be that. It’s just, if these are your realistic draft picks, for me, this is where I went to, to get first rounders. So I’m gonna run down and we’re gonna see where we’re the same at.
to start off with. And I think I know where we might be the same, but let’s start there and then we can start to divvy up where maybe we have some flyers on guys. Here are my no brainers. Ameca Buka at Y receiver, a no brainer first round draft pick. Let’s start there. Do you guys have him as probably the best bet to be a first round draft pick for Ohio State in 2025?
Nathan Baird (12:08.07)
I don’t know if he’s a no-brainer, but he was the first name that I wrote down.
Andrew (12:12.594)
He was the second name that I wrote down. He was second on my list of, I think, maybe Surefire, first round picks.
Nathan Baird (12:20.362)
Part of this is the dynamic has become, there’s just an abundance of first round wide receivers every year now. Like don’t you expect like five, six receivers to go in the first round every year? And I don’t see that slowing. That seems to be a trend that is gonna keep rolling as the NFL has become such a pass happy league. And I think Ibuka last year was a little bit out of sight, out of mind. Both.
Stephen Means (12:26.748)
Yep.
Nathan Baird (12:49.874)
because part of the time he wasn’t on the field, a big part of the time, so they were out of sight there. And then even when he was on the field, he was in the shadow of Marvin Harris Jr. So you’re still a little bit out of sight. And he seems like a guy, from what we’ve seen, the way he’s talked, a guy who is pretty motivated. I think he thought he was on a trajectory to be hearing his name this past week. I think if you had asked him a year ago at this time, he would have said, yeah, I think I’m gonna be.
a high draft pick next year in the NFL draft. That’s my goal, whatever. And it didn’t happen because of any number of reasons. And that usually brings guys back pretty motivated to go out and prove what they feel like they’ve probably already proved already. In addition to that, there’s obviously a lot at stake for this team, and he’s one of the guys who I think feels it the most. That not only did you kind of get, last year went sideways on you, both personally and for the team.
It just seems like a guy who’s going to be pretty locked in for 2024 for, or yeah, for whatever that means. Maybe that doesn’t mean anything when it comes to NFL draft weekend. But just the abundance of receivers taken, he has already proven himself to be on that shortlist. And I think there’s a potential that we are going to see the best football of Mecca Ibuka’s career in the year ahead.
Andrew (14:10.738)
Well, and it’s also to you. I mean, I mean, I did this for every position that I had on my Ohio State list. You also have to compare it to maybe what’s coming out in the draft. And I know it’s very early. Luther Burden, get out of Missouri is going to be in the draft. Evan Stewart, there’s a kid out of Oregon, Isaiah Bond. I think they’re all kind of in that mix. And like you said, Nathan, I don’t see a version of which he’s like the seventh best receiver in the 2025 NFL draft.
And if we are kind of operating under this assumption that a handful of receivers are going to go in the first round every year, I just don’t see a way in which Emeka is kind of not, not a first round pick, not a top 32 pick, just because the, the name’s coming out. He’s right there. I think Luther Burden is probably the number one receiver on the board. And I think you can probably make a bunch of arguments for a bunch of other guys.
Stephen Means (15:02.204)
But even saying that, like the seventh best wide receiver off the board in 2024 was a first round draft pick and then eight was 33, Keon. So it’s possible. I mean, we just saw a draft where the first 15 picks were offensive guys and a lot of those guys were wide receivers. So I think, and some of this is, this was a weird draft. The fact that there were just not a lot of defensive players going in year one, but that’s kind of to your guys’ point. Deeper and deeper wide receiver classes year in and year out. And actually, to be honest with you,
And some of this is understanding, I have to, we’re close to Ohio State because we cover this every single day. And so it’s easier for us to be able to evaluate those guys and then be able to evaluate Florida wide receivers and South Carolina wide receivers, because we don’t cover those guys every single day. And some of these guys weren’t like nationally prominent people that way like Keon Coleman was this year as a playoff team. But I do wonder if Emeka Ibuka doesn’t get hurt. I think he probably gives a first round draft pick this year.
to your guys’ point because I just, and this is, once again, saying this as someone who’s this close to Ohio State, I just felt like the way this has kind of mapped itself out here, and I think I asked Nathan this after we were done recording either Thursday or Saturday, like, do you think some of these guys that have they seen how this has played out, maybe they should have gone, because I think they might have gone higher than some of these people. I think Amet Kabuka would have been on this list as well. Okay, he’s the closest thing I have to a no brainer. You guys didn’t use that verb, it’s cool, but he’s the closest thing I have to that.
Nathan Baird (16:12.854)
Thanks for watching!
Stephen Means (16:26.844)
That next tier for me are the guys where it’s like, it’s almost a Chris Olave story a little bit of, I’m highly graded, maybe depending on how some things shake out, I’m a first rounder, but more than likely, I’m a day two early guy, and I’m using this year to solidify myself as a first round trapping. That’s their approach to that.
So this is everything went according to plan and they did exactly that. They turned themselves in the first round of draft picks, whether it’s top 10 pick or it’s number 27. They’re using this year to do that. I have Jack Sawyer, JT Tween Malowow and Denzo Burke. Any objections to those three guys? Andrew, you go first.
Andrew (17:11.954)
Well, in that tier, I had Jack Sawyer first on my list. I think, I think Jack Sawyer is going to end up a first round pick. Um, I, I would kind of group Jack and Mecca and JT together in kind of their own tier if I were making my own kind of tear break, and then I would have a tear break for the corners, um, because I also have Davis and Ibn Osin. So I think that there’s a second tear break for me where you have Jack.
You have JT, I think that, I mean, you look at defensive ends that go in the draft. I mean, it’s, it’s pretty significant. I mean, we talk about receivers. I mean, that also happens for ends. Um, I know this year was kind of crazy. It was an outlier statistically about defensive players, but you still had an edge player go at 15 and edge player go at 17 and edge player go at 19, 21, like 27, you know, you can, you, you still have a lot of defensive ends, edge players, players can get after the passer.
I think that Jack and JT are going to hit that next gear in 2024. I think that those sack numbers are going to get up there. And I think teams are going to look at both of those guys as, you know what? Wow. They are elite level players that can, you know, be a number one pass rusher for us. I think they’re going to maybe be viewed a little bit differently. You know, JT might be viewed as maybe the more high ceiling pass rusher. Jack is the guy who he just does everything right.
type of thing, you know, he can play the run better. I think that, you know, they’re gonna have kind of maybe two different evaluations when you get to the NFL draft, but I think those guys are in that same tier. I mean, I had one, two, three, Jack and Mecca, JT. I’m putting them in the same tier. I don’t think that, you know, there’s much of a difference between those guys. And then I have a tear break. So those top three for me were it.
Stephen Means (19:04.952)
Okay, so your yes on Emeka, Jack and JT and your no on Denzel then.
Andrew (19:09.61)
Well, I think he’s going to be a first round pick, but I think it’s very much 50-50. And one of the reasons why I believe that, so I had Davison above Denzel. I think Davison is, okay, that’s what I was gonna say. Yeah, that’s why I was holding off on the corners.
Stephen Means (19:22.356)
Okay, all right. Okay, we’ll get to the difference in a minute. Let’s see, who’s with Denzel here? It’s a, just for the sake, yes or no, do you think Denzel Burke is going to be a first round drop pick in 2025? Okay, so you are at four right now. Nathan, of those three, how many do you agree with?
Andrew (19:32.312)
Yes.
Nathan Baird (19:41.15)
No, I had all three of those as well and I had them, I think similarly clustered like you did. I think the one that I surprised myself a little bit when I was filling this out because, you know, we’ve all been on the Jack Sawyer surge concept and I believe he has put himself in that conversation with what he showed at the end of last season. And if that unfolds in the year ahead, then I think there might be no doubt that he’s a first round talent. However,
I do think the NFL recognizes when there’s a player who is unique. And I think that’s still a good word to describe JT Tumaloau. And while I don’t know that he is everything they want in a pass rusher, it feels like a guy who would be everything they want in a football player who can get on the field and do dynamic athletic things. So I did have him as I was kind of just sketching, just kind of, you know, first
first reactions to stuff. I put his name down second on my list because I think that we have maybe even gone a little bit too far at times in our criticism of why he doesn’t do insane things all the time. That he seems to only have, you know, like one game of a lifetime per career or only steps up and makes the biggest plays of the season in the biggest games and doesn’t do it in the first quarter
Rutgers or whatever and maybe we have been overly critical of a lack of consistency of the best version of him and I just have a feeling that a again another guy whose best football may be ahead of him But b that this is a different Athlete still this is a guy who I think the nfl looks at and sees a guy who could have been a division one basketball player a good one
And can probably do things athletically on a field that not a lot of other guys can It is up to him though. I think to show that more consistently Maybe I’m countering back on myself a little bit but he does need to be more consistent with some of the best things that he does and I think as this defense keeps coming together That’s gonna be harder and harder for teams to take him away the more Jack Sawyer Breaks out the more you might see JT to him a low out follow on the other side
Stephen Means (22:11.032)
And Larry Johnson has kind of talked about that with the way that they’ve worked off of each other. It’s also just kind of showing off the field as well. But that’s they, we might see what we maybe always envisioned from Jack and JT this upcoming year, where it’s that tandem that’s playing off of each other. That maximizes both of those guys. I just using this draft as just a blueprint for what next year might be.
But though with less quarterbacks, maybe, I don’t know. Quarterbacks are always weird. And that’s to Nathan’s point. Teams are always stupid over quarterbacks. My favorite team just did it on Thursday with Michael Pinnick. So what happens, but I don’t know if there was a quote unquote sack guy in this year’s.
defensive edged line draft, especially when you’re talking about the first round guys, I don’t think there was a guy that you would come and go, oh, that’s a guy who might get eight and a half sacks for you as a rookie. And so maybe that’s why some of these guys fell. But if that’s like not gonna be the case in next year’s draft, which is very much on the table, does that help JT 20 mil O’Hall’s chances of raising in the draft between being number 25 or being 15? Does it put Jack Sword in the top five range or does it keep him in the 15 range? Because I think both of those guys,
Some of this is going to be dependent on what the draft is around them because so far all I’ve named are draft valuable pieces like the most valuable pieces in football. And then the wide receiver to defensive lineman and a cornerback so far so let’s stick with let’s close out the fourth year guys, Andrew before we get into the third year because I want to just try to group things here. So that leaves Joshua Simmons who has multiple years left of eligibility. If he wants to use it but this technically is his fourth year of college football.
Donovan Jackson, Joshua, no, excuse me. Ty Leake Williams and Jordan Hancock. So two of those guys play positions that at least are first round valuable positions with Joshua Simmons being the left tackle and defensive tackle for Ty Leake Williams being more and more valued by the year as football continues on. Jordan Hancock is a cornerback, but he’s also on the interior.
Stephen Means (24:19.872)
any consideration to those guys and what I call for this group, is it even realistic based off what we’ve seen so far from them as just individual players and what their ceilings might be, but then also the positions they play and the positional value that may or may not be there.
Nathan Baird (24:36.478)
So Ty Leake is the only other guy that I put on my list. He’s my fifth and final one. And I hesitated even at that, but I went back and looked because I think that we can take something from, I mean, part of this is just, they’re gonna draft the best players in the country every year, whoever that happens to be. But I think you can sometimes see trends. You can take things, for instance, I mean, there’ll definitely be some trends to talk about when we talk about the running backs and whether they have a chance to be first rounders or things like that.
But as it comes to defensive tackle, my first inclination was, he’s a little small, he’s 6′2″, 290, and that didn’t necessarily stop my call from getting drafted, obviously, but he was a second round pick, like mid-second round pick, 54 overall. So getting towards the back end of the second round. So could tightly burst through that. And the last five defensive tackles drafted.
Byron Murphy was the only one who went in the first round this past year. He’s 6′1″, 297. So ballpark, like same, same size. Now, Jalen Carter last year, 6′3″, 314, but Kaleija Kancey, who also went in the first round last year, 6′1″, 281, even smaller than Tylek Williams. And then the two guys, last two guys drafted before that, Mazzey Smith, Brian Brucie, they’re both, I mean, Brian Brucie 6′5″, Mazzey Smith 6′3″, 337. So bigger dudes, like bigger defensive tackles.
more prototypical size for NFL, I guess. But what I took from that is that it certainly, the size isn’t what’s going to necessarily hold him back. And I just feel like he was a really underrated guy on this defense nationally in terms of people who were just looking at counting stats and things like that. I thought he should have had more, like at least lower ballot all-American recognition than he got this year. I thought he was so crucially, crucially important to that defense.
And while dumb sports writers like us miss things like that, NFL evaluators, I don’t think will miss how valuable and talented Tyeeq Williams is. And he’s still got another year to get better because last year was sort of a breakthrough year for him. It’s not like this has been a thing where we’ve seen him coming. Last year was kind of a revelation. That’s also a thing that maybe caught people off guard that he wasn’t on some short list before the season started for more recognition. That won’t be the case this coming year. And
Nathan Baird (26:57.694)
But again, beyond that, I think NFL teams are gonna look and see how consistently he performed. And like being on the field late in the Notre Dame game and like making plays downfield, like that stuff doesn’t show up on the film of every defensive tackle in the country, even the highly ranked ones. I think Tylek Williams is doing the things that NFL teams are gonna pay to do. I know NFL teams were calling Ohio State, calling his high school coach last year, checking in on him last season.
as he was breaking out, like the word was already getting around. I think he’s going to be it. If he was like the first defensive tackle taken next year, it would not surprise.
Stephen Means (27:38.372)
Hit five pass breakups. It was time for third on the team. Like that’s not to your point, that’s not normal for defensive tackles at his side to be doing that. And he thinks, I mean, you tell him to ask him, he thinks he had more like nine of them. They didn’t count some of them. Andrew, from that list, that second list of, is this even realistic for these guys? Joshua Simmons, Donovan Jackson, Tylee Williams, Jordan Hancock, any consideration of those guys?
Andrew (28:01.03)
Hancock certainly know Simmons. I get the idea of it. You know, teams really need tackles. But I still lean no. There’s two really good tackles coming out next year. Will Campbell at LSU and Kelvin Banks out of Texas, like, I think you have to compare these guys to other players in the country if we’re going to be putting them in this list. So Josh Simmons know. Ty Leake was the interesting one for me. I did not have him on the list and
there are a couple of reasons why. Number one, I think that there’s a very real case that he’s not the best interior defensive lineman in the country. As I was kind of mapping this out, I kind of chuckled to myself because I was like, you know, we’re talking about Ohio State for them having like one of the better drafts in the modern draft era, like is that possible basically? And I was like thinking about it and I was like, Michigan might have two players off the board before Ohio State has any. They have Will Johnson, the corner next year, and they have Mason Graham.
the interior defensive lineman. And that’s where I got caught up with Ty League because I was like, you know, there was one interior player in on the defensive line for as much as they value defensive tackle in the NFL. There was one that got drafted in the first round and it was, um, uh, Tevandre Sweat, um, go into, or, uh, no, it was, um, I forget his name, but there was a first round defensive tackle. Yes. So go to the second round of the NFL draft.
Nathan Baird (29:21.842)
Byron Murphy, who I said earlier. Byron Murphy.
Andrew (29:28.45)
35th, Ruke Arouro, I don’t know how to pronounce his last name, the Falcons picked him. Yes, him. 36, Jersan Newton, defensive tackle out of Illinois. 38, Tavandre Sweat, defensive tackle out of Texas. 39, Braden Fisk, defensive tackle out of Florida State. Like, there was a run in that early second round, and I think teams still prioritize defensive ends over defensive tackles.
Stephen Means (29:34.512)
Or-o
Nathan Baird (29:36.586)
Clemson guy.
Andrew (29:55.766)
And you can say that defensive tackles are on the rise, and I think they are, but that’s not the way. I don’t think that they’re getting boosted maybe in their evaluations. I think it’s very much we can spend priority picks on them, but we still need to spend priority picks on them in the second round. It’s not, you know, I will let’s just pick the 350 pound guy and the 330 pound guy and their job is to stop the run anymore. Like this is a thing where teams will draft.
defensive tackles higher. I just don’t know if that’s gonna be the first round, especially if Tylee Williams doesn’t prove himself as the best interior player in the country. There’s just a lot of talent, a lot of guys that could go on the edge and that gave me some pause.
Nathan Baird (30:45.87)
You listing off like five guys getting taken in the top 40 doesn’t dissuade my argument that he could be taken at least late in the first round. Like that’s still, there’s a very little difference between the guy taking 28th and the guy taking 38th.
Andrew (30:50.849)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Means (30:51.848)
Yeah, actually. Yeah.
Andrew (30:54.926)
I...
Andrew (31:00.294)
I hear you there. When we get to another position, I will, I think, state why I think that. Because I did have Tileek on my list. And then I went, you know, I just don’t know how this math is gonna work. And then was the last one Trivion? Was that what you said? Oh, you haven’t said Trivion. Gotcha.
Stephen Means (31:00.336)
Yeah.
Stephen Means (31:13.968)
I haven’t said Treyvon yet. I have him in a special group. I think.
I’m glad you brought up the Michigan guy, because I think next year’s draft for defensive tackles might look similar to 2023, when there were four. You had Jalen Carter go early, and then you had Kaiser Kansy from Pittsburgh go to Tampa Bay late, and then Mazzie Smith, another Michigan guy go to Dallas, and then another Clemson guy. Brian Brazee go to New Orleans Saints at 29. You had four taken in the top 29. I think we might see a similar situation, because defensive tackle might be pretty deep next year, and that along with what Nathan is talking about,
I think Williams might just test out the wazoo along with having two back to back seasons that look like what 2023 was. You mix those two things together. I think that’s what a first round pick looks like at defensive tackle is when you are super explosive at that size in a way that you can destroy pockets. And yes, defensive end will always be the more valuable thing because it’s on the edge. But when you have a defensive tackle who can destroy a pocket like that.
regardless of whether or not he gets a sack, he might even just get the pass break up. That’s something that I think some teams late might even consider. So that’s the first half of this. I had safe bet. This is why I’m here. And then I had, is this even realistic? I’ve got some other categories. Like I just mentioned before that where the Travion Henderson is, I have him in a special category. Plus we get into some of the younger guys who are going to be draft eligible for the first time. And then some of the older guys as well. When we come back from the break here on Puck Eye Talk.
We’re projecting Ohio State’s potential first round draft picks in the 2025 NFL draft. In the past 25 years, the most the Buckeyes have ever had in a year was five. Urban Meyer did it in 2016 and Jim Trasall did it in 2006. That’s a weird way to say it, 2006. Ryan Day has never had more than three in a current year. They have 91 total in program history. So far.
Stephen Means (33:05.004)
Nathan and I have agreed on a Mecca, Buka, Jack Sawyer, JT Twin, Maloal, Denzel Burke, and Tylek Williams. So we’re already at five, which means now this gets interesting to see how much further we take this while Andrew agreed with four of those five. He agreed with everybody, but Tylek Williams so far, but maybe he, as he hinted at earlier, maybe he might be at five as well. I wanna do running back here.
And we don’t have to have some long conversation about it because we all know the deal running back has become very devalued in the NFL both in on draft day. But then also when these guys are trying to get second contracts while in college football, they’re still pretty valued. If you have a really good running back, that’s a good thing for college football.
Ohio State has two running backs who could be in the NFL draft next year with Trevion Henderson. And I’m introducing our first three and done guy and Quinshawn Judkins, where if you’re looking around at some way too early, just, just do some Google searches. Quinshawn Judkins, Nathan is up on some lists right now, a year from now at a position still, like I mentioned, doesn’t have the same value. If this were, let me start with this. If this were 2006,
Jim Trestle era, would you have either Quin-Shawn Judgkins or Trayvon Henderson as no brainer first round draft picks?
Nathan Baird (34:28.238)
I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know about no brainer. I would probably be considering them more than I would consider either of these guys right now. I would caution anyone against putting too much stock in. Need I remind anyone of the seven banks first round debacle from a few years ago? Like, don’t put too much stock. I mean, people are kind of throwing darts right now and basing it off of.
Stephen Means (34:35.252)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Means (34:47.825)
Yeah.
Nathan Baird (34:55.85)
things like, you know.
Recruiting rankings rather that were how regardless how the guy is producing that sort of thing. So
Stephen Means (35:04.092)
Mm-hmm.
Nathan Baird (35:08.242)
I just don’t know, like I didn’t include either of these guys. There is one mock draft out there. I know that did have Quintin John Judkins at 32. And I do think that’s how one of them maybe could be drafted. Is you get a team, cause like I was looking back at some of the ones who’ve been drafted in recent years. The example that jumps out to me, maybe the most is Clyde Edwards, a layer in the year that JK Dobbins was taken in the second round. He got taken with the last pick of the first round by the chiefs.
So you have a team that’s already championship caliber that has a need at a specific position and grabs who they think is maybe the best guy available rather than like wait around to see if he’s gonna fall. They’re still getting some value there because they’re drafting so late in the first round. I could see something like that happening. I just don’t know which of these two guys I think is the more likely to be that because Juggins has been a workhorse at Ole Miss.
and is a really powerful runner. I think Henderson might still be the one that’s a little bit more electric, but injury concerns. Didn’t really turn it on in a special way, maybe until the second half of last year, partially because of being out with injury. So I don’t know if either of these guys, when you look back at the guys who have been taken in the first round in the last five drafts, there’s five. Bijon Robinson, Jameer Gibbs, Najay Harris, Travis Etienne, Clyde Edwards-Halair.
And I don’t know how many of those guys right now look like they were a great use of a first round pick. So it’s a position that the NFL has gotten away from putting great draft capital into. And I don’t know that either of these guys, they’re both pros, they’re both NFL players. I just don’t know if either of these guys break that mold and get into the first round.
Stephen Means (36:54.324)
Thank you.
Stephen Means (36:58.62)
I think Trevion’s skill set maybe fits more of what you’re describing Nathan, that championship level team who just like needs a piece and so they can afford to use the 28th, 29th pick on a running back in that situation. Neither of these guys are Bijon where, I mean the Falcons just misused Bijon all last year, but it’s like I’m gonna build my offense around you. And then Najee and Travis ETN, I think both of those guys, I think to your point, were just breaches.
especially for the Jaguars where you just took your you started quarterbacking. You just took it running back with him as long as along the way. I think outside of that, the other ones would be reaches. But. I’m assuming, Andrew, you also did not pick either one of these running backs in the first round, so let’s have a different conversation about these two, because I think Nathan brings up a good point. You are trying to compare.
One guy who might be super electric and maybe fits a little bit more of what the NFL is today is can you be electric? Can you be electric in the past game? Can you be a home run hitter? Not necessarily be a workhorse in every single down. Trevion Henderson, but also has a bit of an injury history or the guy who has spent two years at Ole Miss being their guy. 250 plus carries a game and been effective as can possibly be, but also.
more than likely he’s going to get out of college football having had 700 plus carries in his career. So there’s a lot of tread on that tires and that’s what you’re trying to pros and cons of both of these guys were a year out. Who do you think goes higher?
Andrew (38:27.91)
Yeah. So that’s an interesting point that you brought up. And it’s an interesting point that I have been kicking around. And I’m starting to come around to the idea that Quinchon Judkins goes higher than Trevion Henderson. For this reason, Trevion Henderson, you said it in, I think half correct. You said the NFL is moving towards this, right? You want to get him in open spaces, you want to do all these things, you want to get him kind of out and about and you can use his speed. But then you said something
that may just start to ponder and you went, you don’t use him on every down. And the average NFL running back, like their career is like 2.7 years or something like that. So if you are using this first round pick on a running back or, you know, like, like we’re talking about with Nathan where it’s like, Hey, if you want to jump into the first round and take that running back at 32, get the fifth year of the contract.
and then just ride it out and then wherever you’re at in five years, who cares because the running back career is probably over or near over at that point. Like that, I think, is where I’m at, where it’s like, OK, well, if we’re going to invest draft capital in somebody, you know, because we’re sitting there, let’s say a team is sitting there at 39. Let’s say it’s not a first round pick and you’re having to choose between a defensive tackle, a corner and Trevion Henderson. There’s going to be a lot of arguments to
pass on Trevion Henderson because what if he can’t play every down, right? What if you don’t want him to run between the tackles? What if you don’t want him on fourth and one to try and get that yard? That is where I think Trevion Henderson might not be the, the high level kind of pick that I think a lot of people maybe think he is. Like it’s easy to forget. I mean, cause Steven mentioned it, like we cover Ohio state, we don’t cover Ole Miss. We don’t cover, you know, a lot of these other programs.
Quincheon Judkins had a thousand yard seasons back to back years in his first two years of college football in the SEC. Like Quincheon Judkins is a really, really good running back. And I think that’s that power is, is really, really important when you talk about what NFL teams want and we’ll see who they are as pass blockers, but that’s a part of this too. You know, you can’t just send your running back out in a flare out every time you have to have that guy pass protect. And if Quincheon Judkins can do that well.
Andrew (40:51.434)
in 2024 and kind of prove that he is that all, you know, every down all situations type of back. I think Judkins can go higher than Trevion Henderson. I don’t think that that’s crazy. I think if you would ask me a couple of months ago, maybe I would have been like, ah, no, Trevion Henderson, you know, elite level speed, you know, he’s got the attributes he can’t teach. But Quinch on is maybe I think more of what the NFL is looking for. So I think Ohio State has two running backs on their hand that are going to get drafted, but they’re on day two. I just
The first round of it all, I just, I didn’t think so. I think that these are like second round guys. And I think Quinn Sean at this point, I would kind of lean him going over Trivion.
Stephen Means (41:30.952)
So let’s get into some of the other third year guys. And I’m leaving Devin Brown out of this one because I’ve also got a special category for him and I will wrap up with a quarterback conversation. So that leaves a third year guys and I call this 3ND. Third and done.
Sonny Stiles, C.J. Hicks and Davidson Ibn Nosen as the three and done players. And Andrew, I’m going to let you go first here because you’ve already hinted at you had Davis and Ibn Nosen on your list. I actually would have been a little disappointed in you if you didn’t the way you’ve been talking about him for the past month and a half here. So just this is it, man. This is your spiel. Give your way too early spiel for why you think Davis and Ibn Nosen could give Ohio State potentially.
the way you have it mapped out two first round cornerbacks for the second time in the Ryan Day era and the third time in the past 10 years.
Andrew (42:19.582)
Yeah, with Davison for me, it is a, it is pretty much exactly my Quinshawn argument. And my, my Quinshawn kind of point. I just think it’s reframed at corner. Teams want corners that can do everything. And if Quinshawn Judkins can defend the run, if Quinshawn Judkins can get physical up at the line of scrimmage.
and not, you know, you’re not having to hide him. I remember there was a player a couple of years ago, Greedy Williams in the NFL drafts who came out of LSU and the Browns drafted him. And he didn’t know how to tackle. And that was a common kind of joke, but he really didn’t. I know he had some concussions in his career and that was partly because he didn’t know how to tackle. Well, guess what? Davis and Ibn Osin can do those things. And, you know, teams have built offenses around running the ball outside to run it.
where they’re small and if Davis and Ibn Osin is your guy out there, I think that that’s a really, really big box to check because Davis and Ibn Osin, you don’t have to worry about him in that regard. And then he gets to the passing game. And I just think length is an underappreciated asset at corner. Um, I think, um, you know, by fans, I mean, I think the league typically loves these big corners. Um, you know, there were a couple of stats going through the weekend where it’s, you know,
Arm length is really, really important for NFL teams. And it’s really conducive. Like there’s actually a nice correlation between arm length and pro bowls at corner over any other position, you know, the higher, the, the guys who have the longest arms at corner typically end up having pro bowl careers are more often than not, or more often than players who have shorter arms. So I just think he’s got all the physical attributes. I think.
he’s maybe underrated as a corner because I think we talk so much about Denzel Burke. I mean, Davis and Ibn Osin is like, if you were to build a corner in a lab, I think he’s generally what you’re talking about, right? I’m not saying, I mean, obviously he’s not going to have four, two, five speed and also be six, three with the longest arms you’ve ever seen, but he’s it, right? Like he is the prototype of what NFL teams look for.
Andrew (44:35.894)
And I think that’s why he’s gonna be a first round pick next year. That’s why I think he’s gonna be Ohio State’s first corner off the board next year. It is gonna be unique to see how these guys match up. Because I did mention Will Johnson, the corner out of Michigan. If you need a number one corner in 2025, congratulations. You know, happy birthday to you because you got Will Johnson, Travis Hunter, a kid out of Colorado.
You know, he’s a really high level corner. Ben Morrison, out of Notre Dame, really high level corner. Then you got Davison and Denzel. And I think there’s going to be a run on corner next year. And I think Davison and Denzel are right in that mix. And I think what gives Davison the edge as you’re comparing him to other high level corners in the league is he’s just got length and size that these guys don’t have. He’s just got length and size that like Ben Morrison doesn’t have. And I think that can kind of put him high up on NFL team draft boards. So Davison for me,
Stephen Means (45:29.477)
It was something that I wanted to do.
Andrew (45:30.678)
I’m going to keep singing that man’s praises until he shows me that I shouldn’t be. So I think he’s going to be a higher level corner. The other two guys real quick, Sonny, I just have a hard time seeing it. I just have a hard time like see, I mean, maybe he’ll go to the NFL. I just, the, the role of which he would have to play, I think would scare me. If I was an NFL team looking at him going, man, he hasn’t played a lot of football in terms of the position that maybe we want him to play.
So that would scare me. And then with CJ Hicks, I mean, that’s a possibility as well, but it’s the same thing. It’s like, are we comfortable with taking a guy who, it took him like two years to get it. He plays one great year, and then we’re gonna take him with the 29th overall pick. Is that possible? I don’t know. So with Sonny and CJ, I didn’t really consider them at all. But obviously with Davison, I think that that’s a really high level.
Stephen Means (46:23.565)
So to the corner back point in 2016 Ohio State had Eli Apple come off the board early at number 10 to the Giants and then they came back later and no excuse me that’s the wrong year excuse me 2017 Marshawn Lattimore number 11 to the Saints and then Gary on Conley went 24th to the Raiders that year and obviously Nathan 2020 Jeff Okuda goes early to the
Damon Arnett goes a little bit later at 19 to the Raiders. So maybe we see a similar situation like that where maybe Davis and Avinos and, or Denzel, one of those guys goes early, one of those guys goes late if this comes to pass from what Andrew was talking about. So that puts Andrew at five. Nathan, do you go to six with any of these three guys between Sonny, CJ and Davidson?
Nathan Baird (47:07.206)
No, like I said, Talik was the last guy that I had. Now, Ibn Nusayn, I could see it for all the reasons that Andrew was enumerating there. I don’t know that we’ve seen the special coverage thing from him yet. And at the same time, corner is just such a coveted position. And definitely a lot of these guys that we are enamored with at Ohio State right now.
were playing last season, their second year in Jim Knowles’ system, and Ibn Osama was only doing it for the first time. And we saw some real steps forward from a lot of guys in that second season. So I’m definitely on notice for the fact that last year was him setting a really strong foundation. And then this year we see that that’s something special for him. I think Davis and Ibn Osama. I will, I put a little roundup together that for the site Monday morning of what the early, the way too early drafts were.
saying and I don’t remember if his name was on any of them and I thought that even if I don’t agree with Maybe putting him there for sure right now I thought that was odd that his name wasn’t coming up at all because I think he’s a pretty talented guy at the same Time again as you’re casting around for who you’re going to put I think he ranked in the 120s in Overall pff grade last year. So again, if you’re just a guy who’s out there looking like across the country at
the highest ranked guys at certain things who are coming back this year, his name slips through the cracks. But I think he has a good chance to really put his name out there this year. Of those two linebackers, Styles is the one that I would think is maybe closer to being able to make a jump and go all the way to the first round, but only because of that same thing I was saying about JT Tuumalua before, that he may just be a unique talent and that NFL teams would look at him and say, well, okay.
The he’s not a finished product as a linebacker, but the upside here is so high from what he has shown he can do that we’re willing to take him and make him that and we think he could be there pretty quickly. I think it’s more likely that he’s still at Ohio state in 2025, just because to only have one year at linebacker. And we don’t even know if it’s going to be a year of like full starter reps yet. Like there’s a lot.
Nathan Baird (49:32.594)
We may have a different conversation about this in October, after we see how the season starts and how he’s used and what his role is at Ohio State. Just right now, I think he’s more on my radar as like, maybe he blows up in 2025 and is a highly, highly thought of prospect for that draft, for the 2026 draft.
Stephen Means (49:50.96)
I think Sonny’s a safer bet because he’s at least played football. So now it’s like, to your point, Nathan, how quickly does he.
pick up on this and to I think, yeah, we could be having a very different conversation in October. It’s like, Oh, no, he’s awesome. He’s gone. Bye bye. While with Sonny Styles, it’s like, no, excuse me, not funny, but CJ Hicks. It’s just more he’s got this thing. And if it’s so explosive that a team just jumps on it next spring. And that’s just, that’s too much to fathom in April when you haven’t even seen it. And neither one of these guys has officially won the job yet. I just think of the other third year guys are probably just in the best position to
try to go after that. I just want to include this from the sectors because I thought it was funny from a pile we did last week. From a 614, listening to you guys drop Sonny Styles like an elevator that was broken was amazing. Last year at this time, you would have had him as the number one pick on the planet and the member of the Avengers. It’s funny how performance changes perspective. And then he brings up some other stuff we were talking about. That’s just.
It just reminds me of the pop we were having last week where sometimes not playing football When we’re having some of these conversations is the best thing you could have going for you Because all you are is an idea at this point in the moment you step on the football field You’re no longer an idea. Okay, so we’re all at five Nathan. I said you’re done. You said you’re done Andrew I think you said you might be done as well. I am also done I do want to have a quarterback conversation because it’s necessary to have one So we’re gonna wrap up with that when we come back here on Buckeye Talk
Andrew (51:09.237)
I’m done.
Stephen Means (51:20.168)
So there’s two quarterback conversations I want to have about Will Howard and Devin Brown. And they’re two very different conversations. And so I want to start with Devin Brown, just because he’s been at Ohio State a little bit longer. And his conversation is one that is also just a buzzing conversation in the NFL about whether it’s the right thing to do or not, even though everything on the planet says you should not do this. And that’s taking the quarterback in the first round who has only started one year of college football.
Some guys who have done it in recent history here, Kyler Murray did it at Oklahoma, taking over for Baker Mayfield. He ends up being the number one pick in the 2019 NFL draft. Dwayne Haskins does it at Ohio State. He ends up being the top 15 pick in the NFL draft. That same draft. Mark Sanchez did it at USC. He ends up being a top five pick in the 2009 NFL draft. Mitch Trubisky, sorry Nathan, ends up being the number two pick in his NFL draft after starting one year at North Carolina in 2017.
Cam Newton as like a transfer older guy gets to Auburn, takes over, wins national championship Heisman. He’s a number one pick to the Panthers that year. And probably the best case of, I only started one year of college football and it worked because that dude turned into an MVP. That was back in 2019. Since then, we’ve had a couple of other guys do it. Anthony Richardson did it at Florida. He ended up being a top four draft pick in 2023.
And then obviously Matt Jones does it at Alabama in 2021. He ends up being a first round draft pick after just one year as a starter. So there’s been some guys added to the list, but it still isn’t a crazy number. And at least I was here, Nathan with Kyle McCord a year ago of, I mean, his situation is very similar to what Dwayne Haskins is, was.
in 2018, he’s a five star quarterback coming into an offense that has experience and talent all around him. All he’s going to do is be a point guard and this offense is just going to put the numbers up for you. And maybe he can be a one year starter, first round draft pick and NFL quarterback. And obviously that didn’t play out that way. But Marvin Harrison is still pretty good. Mecca Bucca is still pretty good. Travion Henderson when he’s healthy, still pretty good. All those things were true. He just wasn’t a first round draft pick. We’re here again, if Devon Brown wins the job, Nathan, where
Stephen Means (53:33.136)
Becca Bucca is pretty good. Trevion Henderson and Quinianne Judkins are pretty good. Jeremiah Smith looks pretty good. Cardinal Tate and the Brandon’s look pretty good. We’re still questioning about tying it off into line, but the weapons around it seems like it can prop a guy up. It was only a one year starter and put up some type of numbers, words at least. A conversation? So like with Devin Brown.
In these two extremes that with Kyle McCord, it was just a no to the point that he’s not even here anymore. He’s at Syracuse and Dwayne Haskins being a first round draft at Heisman Trophy Finals, if that’s the scale, where do you fall on that scale of if Devon Brown wins this job, what’s more likely?
Nathan Baird (54:16.498)
Well, when you look at the players who have come out early, a that gives you a pretty good indication of why teams don’t draft them and why I think players have been less likely to come out under these circumstances, that it, it doesn’t work like it doesn’t. It, it, there’s much, much more evidence against it working than for it working. And maybe some of these guys wouldn’t have panned out anyway, but no one looks back and says, Dwayne Haskins couldn’t have used another year in college.
No one looks back and says Mitch Strabisky couldn’t use it another year in college. Now the Bears very stupidly decided to trade up to draft this guy, but which compounded their problem and is why they’re still drafting at the top of the NFL draft several years later. Not that I’m a part of my soul isn’t bitter about it or anything, but like looking at this list, like you’ve got guys, you know, Richardson, maybe he pans out, but he was hurt last year. So you got Cam Newton. You’ve got like one and a half guys on this list that have worked out and Kyler Murray had to win a Heisman trophy to be drafted.
where he was. And Calum Marie was also considered maybe in that special athlete class too. A guy who was an MLB prospect and would have been a high draft pick there too. And that’s still like, it’s working, but he’s not like, you know, leading this team to Super Bowls quite yet. So I don’t think there’s any chance that Devin Brown is a first round draft pick in the NFL next year. I think he, the other thing to remember is he’s also was just a redshirt freshman this past year.
He has three years of eligibility left. So even after this year, he’ll have two more years to work with, two more years to grow and get better and improve. And I just think even if he wins this job this year, to go to have such a season that he becomes a first round draft pick. I think we would already have, if that were true, I think there would be less question whether he was the best quarterback on this team right now.
If there’s still this much debate between him and someone of Will Howard’s caliber as to whether or not you’re going to be the starting quarterback, then you’re probably not first round draft pick material right now.
Stephen Means (56:24.176)
That’s probably the right perspective to put that in, which I think brings up another conversation that we’re not gonna do on this pod because it’s probably another 45 minute conversation about just because of the way they recruited that room and the way things worked out with Kyle McCord. To your point, Nathan, he’s got three years of eligibility left, but if he’s not, you know.
what we have come to expect from Ohio State quarterbacks, especially with what’s coming in behind them, that doesn’t necessarily mean that just because you were the starter in 2024, means that just because you come back the next year, you’re gonna be the starter again in 2025. That’s a different conversation for another pot.
Nathan Baird (56:58.738)
I don’t want to say real quick, looking at those two early predictions, I don’t think Kyle McCord’s name came up at all in the first round, which I’m fine with. Drew Allard’s name came up a lot. And if you’re out there putting Drew Allard to go in the first round over Kyle McCord, I don’t know what you were watching last year, or this spring. Like Drew Allard has not shown yet that he is a good quarterback, like a good, powerful quarterback, let alone a first round draft pick quarterback. Maybe he will.
Stephen Means (57:06.555)
enough.
Stephen Means (57:09.97)
Yep.
Nathan Baird (57:26.354)
I just feel like it was one of the indications to me that like, oh, this is maybe some pretty lazy analysis here.
Stephen Means (57:32.188)
don’t let me get this off my chest. I don’t like the way Kyle McCord was painted sometimes during this draft cycle when talking about Marvin Harrison Jr. Because it was almost like used as like a point in the this is why Marvin Harrison Jr. is better than the other two guys who were in the big three wide receiver conversation. Malik neighbors and Roma do say is that those two guys at Heisman Trophy finalists as quarterbacks and Marvin Harrison Jr. went from playing with
CJ Stroud to incompetent quarterback play. And that’s not true at all. He did not have Drew Hauer last year. Kyle McCord was good. He was a very he was one of the 20 best quarterbacks in college football last year. It’s just that’s not the standard here anymore. But sometimes it felt like when they were talking about Marvin Harrison Jr., it was like, well, look at his quarterback playing. Yeah, he still did this. He didn’t overcome Kyle McCord. I don’t think that’s the right way to put that. I just been thinking about that for a little bit here. Andrew, before we move on to the Will Howard part of this.
any just consideration to the Devin Brown one year starter and then he’s off to the NFL or is that just an irresponsible thing for both NFL teams to do and also Devin Brown to do for his own individual development?
Andrew (58:46.038)
Well, it always feels like there’s a quarterback that comes out of nowhere. Like imagine doing this pod on April 29th, 2023 and saying, Jayden Daniels is going to be the number two overall pick in next year’s draft. Um, that would have been crazy. You could have said the same thing about Burrow. Um, there have been a few quarterbacks throughout the years that you could say that about like, Whoa, this guy kind of came out of nowhere. Um, but no, I didn’t consider Devin, I didn’t consider Devin Brown in this, uh, in this kind of category. I think.
Like if he wins the job and plays well, I mean, we have to be talking like he’s in New York in December for him to be, I think, in this conversation.
Stephen Means (59:29.14)
But even with the coming out of nowhere part of it, them coming out of nowhere is like Kenny Pickett going from throwing 14 touchdown passes in 2020 and 2019 to throwing 42 his final year of college football. It would have to look like that, which he doesn’t even have the opportunity to do this year. Okay, let’s wrap up with Will Howard, who I think we all still think is eventually going to win this job anyway, because that’s why he’s here, as a guy who has played football. We just watched a draft where
six quarterbacks went in the first round and I think after the first three we all went what huh teams just overreaching for quarterbacks but that’s what happened and a bunch of those guys Nathan
were guys who got drafted after the transfer into our second team. And it’s still to your, it’s, I know what you’re going to say. It’s not completely apples to apples because Bo Nicks had two years at Oregon. Michael Pinnix had two years at Washington. Jay Daniels had two years at LSU. So they had, it was almost more Joe Burrow, like where you had a year to adjust to a new place, right? You had a year to adjust before you had the year that shows, Hey, I’m an NFL quarterback.
Nathan Baird (01:00:25.83)
Right, Joe Burrow had two years at LSU. Yep.
Stephen Means (01:00:32.796)
Will Howard didn’t have two years. That’s just the reality of the situation. So he’s gonna have to be on a sped up timeline and maybe meet somewhere in the middle of where all these quarterbacks where you’re talking, Joe Burrow, Jaden Daniels, Bo Nicks, or Michael Pinnix were between year one and year two. He’s just gonna have to be somewhere in the middle. And if he is somewhere in the middle, maybe that’s enough for Ohio State to win a national championship. That’s not the conversation we’re having right now. Is that enough where we just watched
Six quarterbacks go off the board in 12 picks. That’s where we’re at with quarterbacks now and taking them in the NFL draft. Does it open? And right now we don’t know who QB1 is in 2020. There’s no clear, there’s no Caleb Williams, Trevor Lawrence, Bryce Young, where it’s very clear a year out who the number one quarterback is going to be a year from now. So it’s really wide open, even if the Carson Beck’s and Quinn Ubers and Chidur Saner’s names are out there.
Just the way we just saw quarterbacks come off the board, does that open your mind a little bit more? I know you didn’t pick them, but does it open your mind a little bit more that if Will Howard is 85% of what some other transfer quarterbacks around the country have been in year two, that he could sneak his way into the first round because teams get dumbfounded when it comes to finding a quarterback.
Nathan Baird (01:01:48.242)
You know, it’s tough. It’s tough to talk about someone sneaking into the first round there. I guess someone could trade up and take him at the end of the first round, but just the teams that are drafting team, the first round typically don’t need a quarterback. So there’s that like, it’s, it’s more like when you’re talking about him, it’s like, is he going to be a top 15 pick? I mean, that’s where you had all six of those guys go in the top 12 this past year, every past week. And. You know, someone even like Michael Pinnix, which I think was insane, but even someone like Michael Pinnix, it wasn’t that the Falcons felt.
They were so desperate for a quarterback that they had to take one there no matter what. They believe in Michael Pinnix. They believe in what they’ve seen on film. They believe in their in-person analysis. They think he’s that good. And so I think that’s where the Will Howard thing is. It really doesn’t matter that much that teams are desperate for quarterbacks. And more is what can he prove? He came here to prove that he’s an NFL quarterback at all.
because he was considering the NFL draft. And I think if he had the indication that he was gonna be a, you know, a definite draft pick in this draft, he might not be at Ohio State right now. So that tells you a little something. You know, when we watched film, I don’t know how you guys felt, when I watched the Kansas State games, probably the player in that offense that I came away the most impressed with was Ben Sennett, who just got taken, I think in the second round, like the H-back tight end guy for Kansas State.
And it’s not that I didn’t think Will Howard was a good football player, but I didn’t come out of that very often like wowed by him. And say what you will about Michael Pennex and Bo Nix, who is really, I think, the two guys we would talk the most about it, maybe being a stretch. The other three guys that got taken at the top, you know, it’s two Heintzman Trophy winners and Drake May, who had been identified well ahead of this year’s draft as someone who had, you know,
NFL intangibles that the teams liked. Um, and NFL skills that teams liked and was projected to be a high pick going into this year. The other guy, like it’s the two guys that are reaches like still, um, did special things sometimes on the field and really set themselves apart with their quarterback play. So that’s, I think where I still just need to see that from Will Hire before I start talking about him as a first round draft pick. I think he’s someone who could definitely play himself into being a draft pick.
Nathan Baird (01:04:10.918)
You know, the guys, but even like there were guys getting drafted late in this draft who were talented college quarterbacks who did good, you know, interesting athletic things as college quarterbacks. And maybe there’s a ceiling on those guys, but I think right now we probably see a similar ceiling on Will Howard as far as what he can be at the NFL level. So it does that make him a late round draft pick? Does that make him a UFA who can be a long-term backup in the league?
I don’t know, but that’s just how I see him right now. Maybe he, once the season gets rolling, once he gets into an offense with this structure and with these kinds of playmakers, maybe it shows us something new. But I don’t right now see him on a first round trend.
Stephen Means (01:04:55.636)
I think one of the craziest things that came out of this weekend was there was a time when people thought Spencer Rattler was going to be the number one pick in the NFL draft and he ends up being 150th in a situation where I’m not even sure he’s going to be the starting quarterback from the world and saying tonight. That’s just it’s crazy to me. But Andrew, what do you think any consideration to Will Howard joining that list of transfers that.
changed locations and it significantly upped their drop stock to first round status.
Andrew (01:05:24.078)
I think it could significantly up your draft status, but I am not very confident that it would be a first round draft status. The only way that I would see it would kind of be like running back where, the Ravens did this in 2019 with Lamar, where they traded into the 32nd overall pick to take him, because they were like, you know what, let’s just get the fifth year, it’s a quarterback. And if it works, if we’re right, we’re gonna need that fifth year to save some money, right?
So I wonder if that would be the possibility where Will Howard is the 48th ranked player on some teams board. Let’s just say that that’s the average consensus. I don’t know what it is. If he can elevate himself to kind of that top 50-ish level player, then you’re talking about a guy who, all right, well, does it really matter if we take our quarterback at 32 or if we take him at 44? If we take our quarterback at 58 or 32, does it matter, maybe?
because if we’re right, we’re good, and if we’re wrong, we’re fired. So I think that could be the situation where if he’s kind of that like back, you know, day two level guy, then you can just kind of talk yourself into like, maybe he just goes round one, so you get that fifth year. You said the other day, or you said a couple of minutes ago that that’s just where the NFL is with six quarterbacks. I actually disagree with that point.
In 2023, there were three quarterbacks in the first round and they went in three of the top four picks. And that was it. There were three first round quarterbacks because the league determined that they wanted to take a chance on Bryce Young, CJ Stroud and Anthony Richardson. And then that was it. And then nobody else went in the first round. Next year, I think we’ve got a lot of question marks. Now, obviously, we still have a whole season of football to play, but.
There’s Carson Beck, there’s Quinn Ewers, there’s Shider Sanders, there’s all these guys that we’re just kind of like, I don’t know, maybe. Like that’s the best word you could describe those guys, right, as maybe. So there’s Riley Leonard at Notre Dame, which I think is in kind of the Will Howard comp. Drew Aller, I’m with Nathan, I’m not putting him up there. The kid out of Oregon, Dylan Gabriel, I mean, maybe. I just, I don’t think.
Andrew (01:07:36.854)
teams are necessarily like, we have to take a quarterback early. If there’s not one there that’s not high on the board, they’re just not going to take one. And I think the reason we saw six this past couple of weeks or past couple of days was because teams saw the maybe disaster building in 2025. And they went, you know what, if we don’t take a quarterback here, we might be in trouble. If we don’t take a guy that we want in 2024,
Like the Broncos, I’m sure had this thought. The Falcons thing was ridiculous anyway. But I’m sure that was part of the Falcons thinking, which was, look, if we don’t...
Stephen Means (01:08:14.512)
We get it guys, the Falcons did something stupid, we don’t have to keep talking about it.
Andrew (01:08:17.69)
I know, but like, I’m sure that was part of their thinking where it was like, if we don’t take Penix here, we’re not going to, we might not take a quarterback next year. And then who knows where we’re going to be after the 2025 season. Maybe Kirk is retiring. Maybe we’re getting out of that contract, whatever. That was the reason why I think there were six, not because teams are so goo Gaga over quarterbacks. It’s the 2025 class might just be so weak. So there’s a couple of ways which I could see it, which is
You just take advantage of a really weak quarterback class. You take advantage of a team trying to get that fifth year. But notice I’m not saying Will Howard shows up and is like, whoa, this guy is the 10th best player in the country. We have to take him. I think it’s gonna be some situational stuff that would get him into the first round.
Stephen Means (01:09:06.608)
Yeah, man, I don’t know what the Falcons would do if the quarterback situation sucked in 2025 and it wasn’t a good quarterback into 2026. And then you took a 22-year-old who would still be younger than your entire quarterback room. Anyway, that’s not for this pod. I didn’t have Will Howard either. And I’m like 25% open to it though, just because what if Ohio State unlocks something? What if he’s not wrong?
What if what Will Howard was saying the first time we talked to him and just the way he was used at Kansas State in comparison to how he is going to be used at Ohio State, Unlocked something and he gives scouts something new to look at. And because of that, mixed with the value of quarterback sometimes some team takes a fire on them at 16.
I’m open to it 25%, but that’s not enough for me to put it down on a list like this. So what ends up happening here is we are all in agreement that we’re projecting Ryan Day to tie Jim Trestle and Urban Myers highs of five.
Nathan and I had a Mecca, Bucca, Jack Sawyer, JT Twielm, a low out Denzel Burke and Tiley Williams. So five, four year guys. Andrew had a Mecca, Bucca, Jack Sawyer, JT Twielm, a low out Denzel Burke and the Davis and Iqbanosin. So four, four year guys and one three and done guy. We all got there with it, which would put Ohio State at 96.
all time first round draft picks, regardless of which one comes right, or I don’t know, any other formulation of this. But the point we all think, projecting a year out, Ohio State will be at 96 all time first round draft picks, which is, they already have more than any other program in NFL history that would just push that number out even more. So let’s close with this. If we all think they get the 96 by 2025, that puts them four away from being the first program to have 100.
Stephen Means (01:11:03.196)
Do we think, this is a way too early thing, that by the end of 20s, 26, they can get to 100 first round draft picks? Nathan, you first.
Nathan Baird (01:11:16.857)
Um...
Yes, in 2026, I think it’s possible because I think you’ll have Caleb downs. I think you’ll have at least one receiver. I think you will have Sonny Styles in the mix there. I think if Davis and Ibn Osin stays another year, he’ll be in the mix. If not, you’ve got other cornerbacks will be in the mix. I think 100 is very much by the end of the 2026 draft. I think 2028, I think 100 is very much within reach.
Stephen Means (01:11:28.814)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Means (01:11:49.135)
Andrew.
Andrew (01:11:49.618)
Yeah, there’s so many guys there that were like, Oh, maybe like we’re talking about like Tyler Williams. You know, we’re talking about one of the running backs. Like we’re talking about all these like maybe like we’re talking about these future guys to like, Oh, well, there’s definitely Caleb Downs and there’s, you know, definitely going to be a receiver that comes out of this. Right. Like, I just think that there’s a lot of like, there’s a lot of, you know, grab bag stuff where you’re like, Oh, it could be this guy could be that guy. But I think you’re gonna get there. I think that number is fair.
Stephen Means (01:12:20.868)
I think that might surpass it. I think that might be like one on one or something because to your point, Nathan, there might be two receivers and that you’re depending on how Cardinal Tate and Brandon is continue to progress there. I don’t know. Maybe Jeremiah Smith pulls a Marish current, tries to get to the NFL early. Who knows?
Those are our lists. We all think they’ll be at 96, getting five guys which will tie Jim Trestle and Urban Myers highs during their times as Ohio State’s head coach. But it’ll still be one short of what the overall record is. That’s six held by Miami’s 2004 and Alabama’s 2021 draft classes. Get the text 614-350-3315. As you’re listening to this, the transfer portal is closing. Is it like a time, Nathan, that it actually closes like they do with the trade deadline or is it just on that day?
Nathan Baird (01:13:00.758)
I it it’s probably 1159 p.m. That day I believe
Stephen Means (01:13:04.312)
Okay. So as you’re hearing this, the transfer portal is closed. So there’ll probably still be stuff trickling out of God.
Nathan Baird (01:13:11.366)
No, it’ll still be open on Tuesday- throughout the day Tuesday.
Stephen Means (01:13:14.948)
Okay, so 1159 on Tuesday is when it closes. Okay, so last day of the transfer portal is today. As you’re listening to this pod, so get the text 614-350-3315. So far, Ohio State has lost three people as of this pod going up at 3 a.m. in the morning. Maybe that number goes up throughout the day. Maybe it’s six at three, but that’s where we’re at. And if anybody else goes in, that’s where we’re going with the information first. Andrew, was that what it can’t?
Nathan Baird (01:13:17.833)
I believe so.
Stephen Means (01:13:43.852)
over the weekend at the end of, while Nathan and I were doing NFL draft stuff for guys going into the draft, Andrew was on the side of work. Guys go at the end of their careers when they’re really, really good watching teenagers.
do stuff and he probably got intel from a lot of those guys. So we’re gonna be doing a recruiting pod this week. And then we’re gonna be doing something later this week. Y’all have some of the stuff we did last year, just most valuable players on the team. We’re gonna involve the Texas in that as well. 614-350-3315 two week free trial, 399 after that for Nathan Baird, for Andrew Gillis, I’m Stephen Means. And that was Buckeye Talk.